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White Mountain Independent

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Roberts Rules of Order Are you feeling better off than four years ago?

Posted: Saturday, September 22, 2012 5:00 am | Updated: 11:07 am, Sat Sep 22, 2012.

Anyone feel like grass, lately?

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  • Discuss

Welcome to the discussion.

47 comments:

  • ArizAl posted at 8:17 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    Am I feeling better now than 4 years ago? Of course I am Dave, my 401-K has now rebounded back 4/5 the value of it's highest mark. Compare that to the loss of 2/3 the value in november 2008 pre-Obama. The housing market is steadily coming back; we are no longer losing 800,000 jobs per month, instead we are creating 150-200 thousand jobs per month. Osama Bin Laden is dead and General Motors is alive. the stupid Iraq war is ended and Afganistan war is due to end soon.

     
  • TN4994 posted at 11:40 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 1893

    David, the original bees were given validation by the monarchs of Europe to come here. With the founding and expansion of our country they became a natural part of the nation. They BEE Americans.[smile]

     
  • wes alderson posted at 6:49 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    See? I knew it. I knew it! All this time, Arizona Al has been part of the 1%, living off Wall Street Investments, while claiming to be part of the underpriviledged.

    Al is a Capitalist, living high off the sweat and blood of the working masses.

    I think we should force him to pay higher taxes.

    Hee hee hee.[beam]

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 10:05 am on Sun, Sep 23, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    "my 401-K has now rebounded back 4/5 the value of it's highest mark"

    By all means, let's gauge the health of the entire global economy by the few extra dollars in your 401K. That's certainly a reason to vote for Obama and another 4 years of slash & burn foreign and domestic policies.Did you take into account those few dollars are actually worth less than they were in 2008? You're actually at a net lose, go figure.

    "The housing market is steadily coming back"

    It is? More wishful thinking I'm afraid..

    "we are no longer losing 800,000 jobs per month, instead we are creating 150-200 thousand jobs per month"

    Nonsense. We've been hemorrhaging jobs for the past 4 years at an ever increasing rate. Once Obamacare is fully implemented and Obama kickstarts his version of cap & trade, the unemployment rate will continue to rise along with the entitlement class.

    "Bin Laden is dead"

    Yeah, so they say. Did you ever see a body? Even see pictures of a body? Regardless, celebrating the death of another human being who was simply a scapegoat for one of the largest hoaxes perpetrating on the American people and the world, is just plain creepy.

    "and General Motors is alive."

    Yeah, at an obscene cost. Of course, what the Prez & his lapdog media won't tell you is that roughly 70 percent of the cars currently being manufactured by GM are manufactured overseas.

    " the stupid Iraq war is ended and Afganistan war is due to end soon."

    Yet we're still spending billions of dollars a month in Iraq, and with the increasing violence in Afganistan, don't look for a withdrawl anytime sooon.

     
  • BillyD43 posted at 4:33 pm on Sun, Sep 23, 2012.

    BillyD43 Posts: 1274

    To all my liberal friends out there, I tried! I followed all the rules - well, almost according to Dave and the WMI gang who used their "pick and choose" censorship to keep my factual post from all of you. Ah, such is life! WMI really needs to change its name. It's no more Independent than I am a Far Right Wing Republican. Ta ta, kids and I hope you had a profoundly, peaceful weekend!

     
  • ArizAl posted at 5:49 pm on Sun, Sep 23, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    Wes, aside from being the defender of Dave Roberts, Republican surrogate, Blog policeman, weatherman, scientist, writer, economist, did you now take a job with your much hated government...the IRS? [wink] We all knew that you have been a secret socialist taking Medicare and Social Security. What next? you're going to reveal that you actually enjoy the use of all the government sevices like paved roads and highways,etc., all built by re-distribution of wealth?
    [smile]

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 8:36 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    "...who used their "pick and choose" censorship to keep my factual post from all of you."

    'factual post', eh? Man, thanks for our oxymoron of the day BillyD! You're a lot of things my friend, but factual ain't one of 'em!

    [beam]

     
  • TN4994 posted at 9:14 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 1893

    Al, you ever noticed that the paved roads are not equal? Certain roads are given preference in their maintenance and upkeep. There is no equality. Where is the road-rage? Highways and byways unite. Don't be thrown under the bus.

     
  • wes alderson posted at 11:37 am on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    Billy D,

    Please don't worry. Your posts are again being printed by WMI.

    Speaking as an independent who is not an employee of this newspaper, I suspect sometimes, that there is a "Penalty Box" effect, sort of similar to what happens in hockey, where if somebody commits a foul, he is made to stay at rignside for a certain number of minutes before being allowed to resume play.

    I know that several of us, including me, have spent time in the penalty box, if my guess is accurate. A few folks such as RonZim and JimBeck have never been in the penalty box because they are never confrontive, aggressive, nor offensive in their posts.

    Personally, I enjoy your recent turn to the better where you really are trying to stick to the Code Of Conduct. I like reading your posts these days. Welcome back.

     
  • Rick Slo Low posted at 3:16 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    Rick Slo Low Posts: 1369

    Old Mexican Poverb -When the grass grows at the country club we get jobs . Hey did you notice that housing is more affordable?Can't believe some of the deals out there.The independent does not give a hoot about your political views it will sell anyone a copy for fifty cents .Hint to all my thrifty (cheap)Republican and Democratic friends its free to view at the public library.All you old timers out there drop in and reminese with Dave about when you could buy a paper for a penney or a nickle beats the heck out of telling me what you could of bought that gun for fifty years ago.wes will get you my email adress hey Al said you use to play football with Red Grange you have to tell us about it someday.

     
  • lakesider posted at 3:34 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    lakesider Posts: 817

    "All right, that’s not likely, but they could direct that they loosen nitrous oxide emission standards from these plants, which has the same effect."

    It's not so much lowering the emission standards that is the problem here... The real problem is that the government is mandating the technology we use to meet the standard.

    So, if a young, emerging, Thomas Adams invented a filter to scrub all the nox out of the stacks that was made from oil-based chewing gum harvested from nuclear scuba divers, perforated Red Solo Cups, lined with extract of Irish moss, they would say "No way!"... Unless it's solar, wind, or water, they really don't want to hear about it. All politically correct solutions must to have green appeal or they will be thrown out and ignored!

     
  • parkwmi posted at 3:52 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    parkwmi Posts: 67

    I too am better off due to the performance of IRA investments, 27% to be specific. Where was the DOW when Obama took office? 8,280? And now, 13,558? My vote is for Obama.

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 7:24 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    "My vote is for Obama."

    And that would be a wasted vote. You know there's absolutely no logical reason for the stock market to be relatively high like this, right? Sooooo... what does that tell you? Hmmm?

     
  • ArizAl posted at 9:05 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    "And that would be a wasted vote. You know there's absolutely no logical reason for the stock market to be relatively high like this, right? Sooooo... what does that tell you? Hmmm?"


    It tells us the the markets reacted to President Obama taking our country out of your recession. It tells us the U.S. bureau of labor statistics says 4.6 million jobs have been created since you ruined our economy and were losing 800,000 job every month. It tells us the stock market likes what Obama has done, otherwise it would have stayed at 6,000 where you wingnuts had it, instead of where it is now at 13,500. What is also very well known across the nation is that high unemployment is the direct result of Republicans blocking every single jobs bill that has been proposed by the administration for the last 3 years. The last one to be blocked was a bill to provide 250,000 veterans a job. Maybe, that's the reason the American people prefer President Obama over Mittwit Romney, he will represent all the american people, including the 47%(150 million) Mittwit said he would not.

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 10:40 am on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    "It tells us the the markets reacted to President Obama taking our country out of your recession."

    psssst.. we're still in a recession. In fact, we're heading for a depression of Biblical proportions under Obama's watch.

    "It tells us the U.S. bureau of labor statistics says 4.6 million jobs have been created since you ruined our economy and were losing 800,000 job every month.'

    The BLS has also been telling us that:

    •Another 581,000 Americans “VOLUNTARILY” left the labor force in one month.

    •The unemployment rate has dropped from 9.1% last August to 8.1% this August. The working age population has risen by 3.7 million people and the number of employed people (including part-time) has increased by 2.3 million, and they try to tell the American public with a straight face that the unemployment rate has dropped by 1%.

    •According to these drones, 2.7 million Americans decided to kick back and live the good life, leaving the work force to pursue other interests.

    •The participation rate and the employment to population ratio are now both at new lows, not seen since the early 1980s.

    The lies, misinformation, corruption and outright deception perpetrated on the American people by the corporate fascists controlling this country is almost incomprehensible. The truth is impossible to get from anyone connected to the existing social, economic and political structure. We are in a Greater Depression and anyone with two brain cells knows it.

    "What is also very well known across the nation is that high unemployment is the direct result of Republicans blocking every single jobs bill that has been proposed by the administration for the last 3 years"

    These laughable 'jobs bills' are simply more of the same failed stimulus programs - cronyism at it's finest. If you could actually see past your uber partisan blinders, you'd understand why the republicans have blocked these useless and wasteful bills.

    "The last one to be blocked was a bill to provide 250,000 veterans a job"

    They blocked it because attached to it was also a provision to defund an additional 5.3 trillion dollars from Grandma & Granpa's medicare to help fund Obama's nation-bankrupting healthcare 'reform' bill.

    "Maybe, that's the reason the American people prefer President Obama over Mittwit Romney, he will represent all the american people, including the 47%(150 million) Mittwit said he would not"

    He will represent all of the American people? Yeah, he's going to send us all to the poor house - rich, poor, black, white, hispanic, you name it. Under Obama, we're all equally screwed!

    Hope & Change my backside..

     
  • wes alderson posted at 11:53 am on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    Psssst - Hey BillyD . . . . that penalty box still looms big on the local horizon.

    I will join you in wishing Al Kudies. But not because he blew anybody out of the water - just because he is "Good Old Al."

    I hate to say it, but just as Boomer stated, we are still very much in a recession, scrabbling to try to prevent ourselves from calling it what it really is - a full-on depression.

    If you read the major economics journals, editorials in the business sections of major city newspapers, and even Newsweek, it is obvious that things have not improved during the past four years - with one exception. That exception is the stock market . . . . but that is the least important of any economic indicator.

    By and large the stock market goes up and down because it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. When the poetentional buyers of stock THINK the market will go up, they buy, and that causes the market to rise. And vice versa.

    Lately, the market has also benefited from QE1,2, and 3 - because the removal of provate currency from the bond markets forces investors to place it elsewhere - and the elsewhere right now is the stock market. Stuffing their money in bank accounts that pay virtually no interest does not appeal to investors.

    Let's not kid ourselves - it took the blind misinterpretation of what a "Good Economy" should look like, by the last several presidents, both Repulcian and Democrat. No president of either party will get us out of this without some fundatment reforms of our entire economy . . . . reforms that neither Obama nor Romney can understand.

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 3:44 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    "Kudos, Al! You blew Boomer right out of the saddle. I love the Mittwit reference! Oh, and Boomer, you wouldn't know a fact if it rose up and smacked you in the face.
    Four more for '44!!!!!!!!!"

    Look Al.. You've got a cheerleader! Isn't that special. Get a room you two!

    [beam]

     
  • TN4994 posted at 3:46 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 1893

    "and Boomer, you wouldn't know a fact if it rose up and smacked you in the face."
    Don't know about this statement. I found the same facts on unemployment and the veteran's issue that boomer reported.
    Might be that Boomer can lower the Fact Checking Boom when he wants.

     
  • ArizAl posted at 4:20 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    "psssst.. we're still in a recession. In fact, we're heading for a depression of Biblical proportions under Obama's watch."

    Only if Mittwit Romney get elected and you're one of 47%,150 million Americans that he assured his elite rich friends that he does not care nor will not represent.


    "The lies, misinformation, corruption and outright deception perpetrated on the American people by the corporate fascists controlling this country is almost incomprehensible. The truth is impossible to get from anyone connected to the existing social, economic and political structure. We are in a Greater Depression and anyone with two brain cells knows it."

    The American people can chuze to believe Boomer and Wes, or they can believe
    the National Bureau of Economic Research , and all other of our nations real economists that concluded that the recession offically ended on June,2009. That is the official accepted date by all Americans as well as our government. As Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's Analytics said, It was no accident that the recession ended at the time of peak spending by the Obama Stimulus. It would be remiss of me not to mention that 127 Republican congressmen and women petitioned the Obama administration for millions in Stimulus funds for shovel ready projects in their states and in their districts. Romney's vice president Rep. Paul Ryan submitted 3 requests for Stimulus monies and got them. Then the idiot hypocrite goes on t.v. and denouced the Stimulus.

    "These laughable 'jobs bills' are simply more of the same failed stimulus programs - cronyism at it's finest. If you could actually see past your uber partisan blinders, you'd understand why the republicans have blocked these useless and wasteful bills."

    Fixing the nation's infrastructure is useless and wasteful?
    Boomer, How about telling the sand and gravel outfit in Snowflake that the contracts they got to fix highways in Navajo county and Apache county that their work was wasteful and useless. Tell their workers that the earnings they made were wasteful and useless. Tell the local merchants where those workers spent their paychecks that they are useless and wasteful.

    "They blocked it because attached to it was also a provision to defund an additional 5.3 trillion dollars from Grandma & Granpa's medicare to help fund Obama's nation-bankrupting healthcare 'reform' bill."

    Dang fella, putting money back into healthcare for all the people is a heck of a lot better than Romney and Ryan taking that 5.7 trillion dollars and giving it to their billionaire friends. Anybody with 2 brain cells can figure that out!

    "Maybe, that's the reason the American people prefer President Obama over Mittwit Romney, he will represent all the american people, including the 47%(150 million) Mittwit said he would not"

    "He will represent all of the American people? Yeah, he's going to send us all to the poor house - rich, poor, black, white, hispanic, you name it. Under Obama, we're all equally screwed!"

    "Hope & Change my backside.."

    Maybe you're screwed Boomer, but the American people are seeing their pensions, 401-K, IRAs, make a recovery. Best of all in 1 year, the American people will not have to worry about losing their homes, their pensions,and savings because of a catastrophic illness or injury, thanks to President Obamacares.

     
  • TN4994 posted at 9:30 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 1893

    Al, the only real gripe I have about your last paragraph. What about the ones who lost their homes this year and last.
    Sure, a few counties and states passed resolutions forstalling foreclosures, mainly because Citicorp, Chase and others messed up on the process. Loved it when they foreclosed on that house in Idaho. The one that never was mortgaged and been in the family for generations. No, it was just an urban legend, but a good one.

     
  • ronzim posted at 9:57 am on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    ronzim Posts: 3094

    Al: Excellent response!

     
  • Rick Slo Low posted at 3:25 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    Rick Slo Low Posts: 1369

    Al you can't stop the "Bobs" they are tuned in to Rush, Fox and Shawn and will just keep "Bobbin" away.

     
  • wes alderson posted at 6:08 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    Al and Ron,

    Will you please explain why the federal reserve stated that a QE3 was needed, if as you say, the recession is not still enveloping us?

    Also, do either of you understand what we economists mean when we say that the stock market functions mainly as a self-fulfilling prophecy?

    And finally, if you feel the stock market is a good guage of the health of our economy, then why does the average Dow PE Ratio still suffer as of now?

     
  • wes alderson posted at 6:13 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    I should have cited that famous historical event that happened during the campaign for President when Eisenhower defeated Adlai Stephenson. Stephenson had been going aroung boasting about how great the economy was, and giving the Democrats credit for it.

    In reality the economy was still in the doldrums.So during one Speech, the witty Senator Everett Dirkson stood up and asked in his deep bass voice,

    "But Mr. President, if everything is so good, then why is everything still so bad?"

    Al, I ask you that question right now.

     
  • ArizAl posted at 9:01 am on Thu, Sep 27, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    Very simple Wes. When we look at how Republicans left our country before Obama and compare that to where we are now, there is no question about it;we are a heck of a lot better now than then. Those are your choices:go back to the failed Bush policies that destroyed our country or stay with President Obama that has accomplished much to get our country out of the Republican recession.

     
  • wes alderson posted at 9:54 am on Thu, Sep 27, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    Al, it took decades of destructive government practices by both Repulbicans and Demorcrats to bring us to the point in our economy that now exists.

    That is the correct answer you failed to give, for the question:


    " If everything is so good, then why is everything so bad?"

     
  • ronzim posted at 4:04 pm on Thu, Sep 27, 2012.

    ronzim Posts: 3094

    Wes: QE3 is needed because the congress will not do its job of stimulating the economy and helping to create jobs. The economy cannot fully rebound without the housing sector. Presently, the surplus inventory has mostly been worked off, home sales are up, housing prices are increasing and even the moribund construction sector is improving, partly as a result of the administration's policies and previous help from the FED. This new round of QE holds good prospects for increasing construction because it starts from a better base then at the recessionary trough.

    The psychology of the stock market is largely unknowable. That said, the price of a stock is set when 50% of the players are sure it won't go up and 50% of the players are sure it won't go down. That equilibirum is, however, in perpetual flux and is most aligned with the "paradox of 'right now'" in physics. It meets Chuchill's description of Russia. It comports to the behavior of my uncle "Corky" Zimmerman. One fellow documented that his cat's eating habits predicted the market. Silly? Of course! We all know it is controlled by a giant bank of computers in Marc Ridenauer's den.

    The stock market is not the economy but is one of several important indicators of what is happening in the macro-economy. It is analagous to the temperature of a human being vis-a-vis that person's general health.

     
  • ArizAl posted at 6:07 pm on Thu, Sep 27, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    Wes, Obviously,from your viewpoint the only correct answer is your answer even when proven wrong.

    Prior to the Republican Bush administration, only 12 years ago we had balanced budgets multiple years, we were paying down the national debt, their was no housing crisis, there were no unpaid for wars, the economy was producing over 23 million jobs,there was no financial crisis in our capitalist system.....so Wes, don't try to associate the failures of the Republicans to the Democrats and President Obama.


    Sorry Wes, you struck out. I am right...you are wrong. [smile]

     
  • ArizAl posted at 6:12 pm on Thu, Sep 27, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    Great post Ron. Wes went down for the 8 count!! 2.65 biscuits [beam]

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 8:38 am on Fri, Sep 28, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    "When we look at how Republicans left our country before Obama and compare that to where we are now, there is no question about it;we are a heck of a lot better now than then"

    You know, this is about the 3rd time I've read this statment in as many months but we've not been given any evidence to support it. If we're so better off than we were, it should be easy to cite examples, yes?

     
  • ronzim posted at 12:17 pm on Fri, Sep 28, 2012.

    ronzim Posts: 3094

    I have already said that "Are you better off now then you were four years ago?" is a lousy question. Much is to be learned from the way questions are framed and even more from the way answers are crafted. You can pick the worst day under a previous administration and compare that to the best day under the one you favor - intellectually dishonest. You can present a big list of data and then engage in conflation and correlation error to misrepresent the truth (See k's long post #171 above). The facts of a situation can better be had by avoiding the cherished practice of placing all blame on the other party and attributing nothing but great virtue to your own.

    The Great Recession has a long pedigree which originated in the early 1980's with a drive to deregulate; aggravated by inept action on the part of the Greenspan FED; aided by repeal of banking separation; increased by unpaid-for tax reductions and unpaid-for military actions; and magnified by changing the structure of Wall Street from partnerships to public firms; and the unprecedented rise of greed and criminality in the financial sector.

    All of these factors, and more, set the stage for the 2008 crisis which was precipitated by a version of the Ponzi scheme in the nation's mortgage business. Most of this was due to Republican policies and practices; however, the DEMS have some share in that.

    To fairly assess the Obama administration's performance in responding to the recession, I suggest that it is fair to outline the conditions prevailing when they took office and to acknowledge that while the recession ended in June 2009, the historical lag in unemployment continued until April 2010. While bearing the dead hand of congressional obstructionism, the administration has presided over a modest but slowly increasing recovery.

    As for examples, I have listed four above and several others in the past couple of weeks.

     
  • ronzim posted at 12:29 pm on Fri, Sep 28, 2012.

    ronzim Posts: 3094

    Wes: The answer is to be found in a medical analogy: The patient was at death's door. Massive medical intervention which was very unpleasant just barely saved his life. Even so, members of the patient's family intervened repeatedly, based on ideological convictions, and prevented the use of some of the best medical science available. So, the reason things are so good is that the patient survived. The reason things are so bad is because the patient now incurs a much longer and more painful recovery then would have resulted if there had been no interference.[wink]

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 2:00 pm on Fri, Sep 28, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    Ronzim writes: "All of these factors, and more, set the stage for the 2008 crisis which was precipitated by a version of the Ponzi scheme in the nation's mortgage business. Most of this was due to Republican policies and practices; however, the DEMS have some share in that."

    The Dems have SOME share in that? From a 2003 New York Times article -

    ""The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago. Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry.""

    Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/business/new-agency-proposed-to-oversee-freddie-mac-and-fannie-mae.html

    So, back in 2003 the Bush administration wanted more oversight of the mortgage industry, calling Fannie and Freddie 'broken'. The Democrats, under the direction of Senators Reid and Frank assured everyone that Fannie and Freddie were sound and blocked all Republican efforts. The Democrats wanted no oversight whatsoever because they didn't want to prevent poor people from buying homes. If the Republicans had had the needed 60 votes in the senate, this recession might never have happened!

     
  • wes alderson posted at 5:04 pm on Fri, Sep 28, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    Sorry, Al, you are wrong again. The only problem with the comments made by RonZim is that they are so accurate and well-balanced, they do not serve to prove either right wing or left wing preconception.

    I disagree with Ron that the stock market is any form of indicator of the health of the economy. I feel, based on watching my father's magic touch with the market, years ago, that it is 99% self-fullfilling procpecy. IE - if we were to "fool" the investors into thinking thing were good, and that the market would rise as a result, it would rise based on our fooling them - NOT based on the heath of the economy. And vice versa.

    The stock market functions in it own perceived bubble of realtiy. That is one of the reasons I have never invested in it since I sold off holdings decades ago that my Dad convniced me to buy, and bought my first home with the profits, back in about 1968. Frankly, I knew those profits were just witchcraft profits, and did not trust the market as a result.

    Likewise, to repeat, the consumer confidence index is dumb, because the higher it is, the more we buy from China.

    Ron - - In my opinion, the economy is worse off now than it was four years ago. It is, however, on life support. Don't get me wrong - QE3 was needed. But that is part of the life support. As long as the patient is on a respirator because he cannot breathe on his own, that means he is still not out of intensive carea and we are NOT out of the recession.

    Now about so-called balanced budgets. My book keeper when I was CEO of the corporation kept coming to me and saying,
    "Mr. Alderson, I can write the books to show that we made a profit if you want, of course we really didn't."

    And I refused to play that game. But both democrat and republican presidents do play that game and have for many years. For one thing, at times, the budget does not differentiate between long term expenses and short term. It certainly does not show depreciation properly - even though it urges our businesses to do so.

    Ron, I suspect you are the only non-accountant in the area who knows what that means. Building an atomic sub can be shown as a one time expense, or a long term expense attributed to the overall Govt P & L, as it were, over the period in which the sub will be in use.

    Based on long term write downs, our nation has had a balanced alternative budget several times. The Clinton budget may not have been one of them. I saw that budget. By and large, both parties have played fiscal tricks on us - especailly during election years.

    So, Al, you sometimes just "think" you have proved me wrong. If you were to comprehend the deeper issues you would not jump to that incorrect conclusion. One of these days, one of us should ask a local economics to give his POV on whether or not the Federal Budget has been balanced in the last twenty years.

    Sad, huh?

     
  • ronzim posted at 5:05 pm on Fri, Sep 28, 2012.

    ronzim Posts: 3094

    Boomer: Thanks. I will read that. As I said the DEMS are, in part, responsible. I must say though that Freddie and Fannie, as badly managed as they were, did not create the mortgage products which deceived nearly everyone in the world in that business. They, like other badly managed investment entities and individuals bought products the nature of which they did not understand. This was a global debacle in which F&F played a role, but were not the cause. I may have more to say on this after I look at the article.

     
  • ArizAl posted at 6:39 am on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    The rest of the story from that New York times Article Boomer, nice job of editing out paragraphs you that don't suit your viewpoint.

    "The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago."

    "Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry."

    "The administration's proposal, which was endorsed in large part today by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, would not repeal the significant government subsidies granted to the two companies. And it does not alter the implicit guarantee that Washington will bail the companies out if they run into financial difficulty; that perception enables them to issue debt at significantly lower rates than their competitors. Nor would it remove the companies' exemptions from taxes and antifraud provisions of federal securities laws."


    In the end, Boomer, regardless of who sponsors a bill in congress it was Bush's responsibility to sign into law or veto it. Bush did nothing to attempt fix the housing crisis that started in 2007, until 2008. Too late to stop the flood of defaults that had already started.

     
  • ronzim posted at 10:37 am on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    ronzim Posts: 3094

    Uh oh, Al. k has found us out! Our cover is blown! Execute PLAN4ii58y forthwith. The bisquit supply, passports and bug-out money are in the locker at site fifty and a half. See you at the safe house. Now we will never be able to reveal the truth about Conspirator Locaters Of Demented Observers (CLODS).

    Where did we go wrong Al? Was it that mysterious woman on the tramp steamer to Marakesh? No, no, I remember now; she was just a plant from the Glenn Beck show. Must have been that head waiter in Haifa. Guess not, we researched his IQ and he was too smart to work for them. It could only have been the art dealer in Paris. He fit the profile perfectly: low intelligence, bad education (and teeth) bi-polar, paranoid, failed golf cart repairman, hemorhoids, and hated all authority. Yep! That was it.

    Don't forget to bring your bat-sh*t, totally crazy person periscope.

     
  • ronzim posted at 11:04 am on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    ronzim Posts: 3094

    Wes: BLS has just released the final jobs figure and has increased job creation to a little over five millions. Moreover, several experts appeared on the Chris Hays show today to point out that the economy is actually a good deal better then commonly thought.

    I think we have an area of agreement though. The stock market is an entity of expectations. Publicly traded firms carefully manipulate their earnings reports and balance sheets to create expectations which induce investors to make decisions. This involves the creation of both low and high expectations, depending upon just what market reaction the firm is looking for. There are a few investors who are savvy enough to recognize these machinations. Most are not!

     
  • wes alderson posted at 11:08 am on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    One point on which I agree with a few posts above, is that our Economy is now so nearly dead, that it is on Life Support in the form of QE3.

    The real indicators of per capita revenue produced in taxes is down, and unemployment is up when we count those who have stopped searching for work.

    And Al and Ron? I do not "blame" either party for this . . . . I hold both parties responsible as well as our overall misconceived life style here in the USA.

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 1:34 pm on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    Actually Al, I've got it right. The democrats and their shills in the media have been spinning this story for years. I'm going to direct you to a Wall Street Journal article that will spell it out for you..

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123137220550562585.html

     
  • ArizAl posted at 4:39 pm on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    Negative Boomer,

    In early 2007, the Case-Shiller house price index recorded the first year to year decline in nationwide house prices and the subprime mortgage industry collapsed which increased foreclosures and also increased interest rates. All this happened under the Bush Republican administration. It would be 2 years before President Obama took office and it was 2 years in which the Republican Bush administration should have done something to remedy the problem. They didn't did they? One would be justified in saying that the Republican Bush administration also knew of the oncoming recession a full year before he left office and they failed to also stop that also.

    So the question remains: Are we better off today than 4 years ago? Dang rights we are, we don't have an administration standing by and letting our country go to h*ll.

    For what it's worth, as of now President Obama policies have created 5.1 million jobs since he took office,2 million more than Mr. Republican Bush did in 8 years.

     
  • TN4994 posted at 8:54 pm on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 1893

    Ok, let us all relax, smell the poppies, and dream of those bygone years of a balance budget. Not Al's smoke and mirrors of the Clinton-Gingrich years, better know as "How the Gingrich Stole Social Security", but of those years of prosterity before the oil crunch of 73 hit. You know, when Richard Nixon was president, Balance budget, debt going down. Source - US treasury and its Finacial statements to the US congress. Ford and Carter kept the ship on an even keel. Then came RR and Congress.

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 9:41 am on Sun, Sep 30, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    "So the question remains: Are we better off today than 4 years ago? Dang rights we are, we don't have an administration standing by and letting our country go to h*ll"

    SnakeOil. This administration has done far more damage to this country in less than 4 years than Bush did in 8. You can spin it all you want but the evidence is overwhelming. The only thing that's kept this economy afloat under Obama has been his wreckless borrowing and spending. His economic policies are unsustainable, even someone like you can surely see that, although having you admit to it is another story.

    "For what it's worth, as of now President Obama policies have created 5.1 million jobs since he took office,2 million more than Mr. Republican Bush did in 8 years."

    Complete, utter nonsense. If there's one thing the American people have learned over the past 4 years is this administration's penchant for lying. When a person is so discouraged that they simply drop out of the job market in utter dispair, this Administration counts then as employed! The desperate underemployed and those who can only aquire part-time employment are also counted as the full-time employed. Of course, if the Obama administration were to actually tell the American people the truth, he'd be impeached within 3 months.

     
  • wes alderson posted at 10:43 am on Mon, Oct 1, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    After re-reading many of the posts made on all the WMI strings during the past week, and also researching similar sites in other journals, it depresses me to form this conclusion:

    1. Regardless of political party, during the past thirty years, candidates for President as well as those in office have become so accustomed to avoiding the truth, that they do not even realize when they are lying anymore.

    2. Neither does the public.

    3. Neither do the media.

    4. Even when I look all the way back to 1951 when I WAS a Republican, and the Precinct Chairman of Rancho Park Calif, I see that the only Presidents or candidates for that office that were truthful to the public were: Truman, Eisenhower, and would-be President Goldwater.

    5. This is a very sad statement for me to make - it reveals a national culture that has allowed expediency to erode the values we used to hold to our hearts. . . . . our ethics, or ability to tell right from wrong, and our very consciences.

    Wes Alderson.

     
  • ArizAl posted at 4:06 pm on Mon, Oct 1, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4103

    Mittwit Romney said,"I said what I said but I don't know what I said,therefore, What I said is the truth if I said it."

    And this guy wants to be the leader of the world's greatest country??

     
  • wes alderson posted at 7:21 pm on Mon, Oct 1, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9410

    Unfortunately, I must agree with what Al said on the other string in this issue, that President Obamajad is an example of the sorts of mis-cues we must avoid if we are to survive as a nation.

     
  • AZBoomer posted at 8:47 pm on Mon, Oct 1, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 487

    "And this guy wants to be the leader of the world's greatest country??"

    What country might that be?

     

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