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White Mountain Independent

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The biggest threat we face is not Al Qaeda, it is our government

Posted: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:00 am | Updated: 7:22 am, Mon Sep 24, 2012.

To the Editor: I am reminded that prior to September 11, 2001, there was neither Homeland Security, nor the Patriot Act and if either had been purposed we would all be screaming. Prior to that date we were a people that loved liberty, and since that date we have slowly given up our freedoms, for a false sense of security. More and more regulations and laws are eating away at the core of our constitutional rights.

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  • Discuss

Welcome to the discussion.


  • AZBoomer posted at 9:29 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 491

    Well said! [thumbup]

  • lakesider posted at 12:38 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    lakesider Posts: 817

    I have proof of Al Q. bombing us. Do you have proof of anything you mention...

    or is this just another opinion on an opinion page?

  • AZBoomer posted at 2:02 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 491

    "I have proof of Al Q. bombing us."

    Your Government telling you so does not constitute proof. In fact, anything coming out of Washington should automatically be considered suspect.

    "Do you have proof of anything you mention..."

    World Trade Center - 1994
    Ruby Ridge
    Oklahoma City bombing
    NDAA - indefinite detention (including American citizens)
    Patriot Act
    Sanctioned assassinations of SUSPECTED 'terrorists' (including American citizens)
    ? (coming soon)

  • wes alderson posted at 3:41 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9542

    Proof? The implimentation of the Patriot Act, the photographs of drone air crafts, the use of those crafts contracted for by city governments, speed cameras.

    What do you mean, proof? This is now part of everyday life.

    Seems to me that we have worries about our own government AND Al Queda, and lots of other things in this out-of-control world of ours.

  • jim beck posted at 3:58 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    jim beck Posts: 634

    Mr. Hill is correct and AZ Boomer supplied some proof. I'd like to offer some more evidence:

    The Federal Reserve Act of 1913, (the largest scam on the American people in history).
    The Vietnam War, (Johnson lied about the Sea of Tonkin).
    Iraq War, (it was proved Saddam had no WMD).
    JFK Assassination, (JFK wanted to break away from the Federal Reserve).
    Flouride in public water systems, (Hitler used sodium flouride as form of mind-control).
    GMO manufactured food, (Monsanto's VP and lobbyist is senior advisor to the FDA).
    Agenda 21, (U.N. Control of U.S. town's and cities).
    IRS, (a direct tax against the American people prohibited by the U.S. Constitution).
    Just to name a few.

  • TN4994 posted at 11:27 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 2017

    Jim, might I add the all or none elector vote used by all but two states in the union (effectively negating any chance of a third party canidate due to sepple voting straight party tickets), and the continued dumbing down of America's schools.

  • Rick Slo Low posted at 4:11 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    Rick Slo Low Posts: 1369

    You forgot RFID technology ,tracking your every move and purchase thru debit transactions,uh oh you said "smart meters" glad no one picked up on that one huh Wes?

  • wes alderson posted at 7:36 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9542

    Rick, er, uh, yup. In all truth, we are being observed in every single thing we do every minute of every day, and we are dumb enough not to worry about it.

    As long as there are steaks on the grill and beer in the frig, we will let everything else go while we watch TV with our jaws hanging open, drooling.

  • TN4994 posted at 10:28 am on Sun, Sep 23, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 2017

    "A beer in the hand is worth two six -packs in the fridge." And I prefer mine with Pizza. Up, I got double rations on my pizza allotment this month. Anybody missing theirs?

  • furn posted at 1:47 pm on Sun, Sep 23, 2012.

    furn Posts: 38

    At some point in history the foreign Agents in control of our Federal Government, decided that they needed to create Federal Police Agencies to protect them! I can’t blame them! If I was a part of a conspiracy that could res...ult in the American people hanging me for Treason,I’d want bodyguards too! Now, if you are one of these public officials; how do you justify the employment and expense of bodyguards, when nobody is trying to injure you, and you
    don’t want anyone to know that you are committing Treason? Instead of confessing your motives; you must find a way to accomplish your objective and blame it on someone else!
    HENCE: The birth of a bad law, The Volstead Act and the beginning of “Prohibition!”
    Enterprising people began to make money and others organized. Those who organized became mobs and when the mobs began killing each other, the free lance boot-legers and innocent people in drive by shootings; our federal officials sat back and enjoyed the show!
    They did absolutely nothing until the public was literally breaking down the doors of the Capitol Building: [Just like they had planned it!]
    The FBI existed before this time. They were a small investigative unit under the Attorney Generals Office. The Agents had no arrest powers and were prohibited from carrying guns.Their only authority was to investigate federal employees and make reports to the attorney general, who then decided if the matter was serious enough to concern the government and whether to prosecute the employee! The FBI was eventually armed, expanded and provided
    national jurisdiction to fight the gangsters! None of which would have been necessary had it not been for The Volstead Act! Slowly, the agency has grown into the giant it is now and ironically; the Legislature never authorized their expansion. Everything was done by the AG administratively! Where does it say in the Constitution that a federal employee has the authority to create law, create a police authority or expand a current one?
    Do you see how our government has circumvented the restrictions placed upon them by the Constitution and manipulated the American people? Every catastrophe, calamity or disaster
    has been planned and financed by our so-called public representatives with an ulterior motive in mind. The creation of Homeland Security was done in the same way! A Terrorist
    attack was staged by hired men having connections to the Middle East. I’m not going to go into the conspiracy, other than to say that President Bush and the FBI were as guilty as the men who high-jacked the commercial airplanes! The director of the FBI confessed to the Congress of his Agencies involvement under Presidential Order. He was relieved of his position and Congress took no action against President Bush and the media did not report
    any of this to the American people! Treason charges were filed against President Bush,Vice-President Cheney and the FBI by a two star General from the Pentagon and no action has ever been taken and nothing was ever reported to the American public, upon the orders of President Obama.This was just another government catastrophe designed to make you (the public) beg the
    government to come to your aid and protect you! Each time one of these catastrophe’s are staged; our representatives steal more of our liberty and freedom from us, but America doesn’t care because now they feel safe once again! And that’s what these foreign Agents
    want us to believe and feel!

  • RYAN M A posted at 2:02 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    RYAN M A Posts: 1480

    Funny in that what some people consider "proof" is a different meaning than what others consider "proof".

    Let me give example.

    Above Jim Beck says "Iraq war (It was proved Saddam had no WMD)

    Let me suggest, because we did not find them, does not mean they did not exist. There is proof that he used WMD against his own people years earlier. So it begs the question, we know he had them at one point. Did he use them all, get rid of them, or did we just not find them when we went into the Iraq war. I still think he buried them under hundreds or thousands of feet of sand, in a country comprised of sand and nobody will ever find them. But he did have them, at least at one time and he used them on his own people.

  • lakesider posted at 3:19 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    lakesider Posts: 817

    Do people even read these comments, or do they exist to incessantly agree for the sake of argument?

    "Do you have proof of anything you mention..."

    World Trade Center - 1994
    Ruby Ridge
    Oklahoma City bombing
    NDAA - indefinite detention (including American citizens)
    Patriot Act
    Sanctioned assassinations of SUSPECTED 'terrorists' (including American citizens)

    no poo... really? what do you think I was referring to?

    Good LAWD!

  • TN4994 posted at 3:29 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 2017

    Finders keepers.

    The WMD's are hidden in the warehouse with the "Ark of the Covenant." Refer: "Indiana Jones" [beam]

    But then they could be at area 51, 52, or one of the other areas.

  • samos545 posted at 3:07 am on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    samos545 Posts: 7

    You are correct but there isn't anything new in what you said. This has been going on for the last two decades at least.

  • Marc-V-Ridenour posted at 10:50 am on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    Marc-V-Ridenour Posts: 317

    I think out nation is in dire peril. Obama is the worst example, and much of what has happened has happened on his watch.

  • ronzim posted at 1:23 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    ronzim Posts: 3203

    It is indeed funny what some people consider to be truth. One example is simply saying that something is true because someone says so or believes it. Proof, however, is evidence based.

    Saddam used chemical weapons against mostly Iraqi Kurds. Chemical and biological weapons by the way are not WMD's from a military perspective. At all events, we learned that Saddam had no nuclear weapons and was far from having any such capability. We further learned that Iraq destroyed all of its CB stocks long before the American invasion. After their destruction, Saddam continued to boast of such weapons apparently to bolster his regional reputation. His dementia may have been a factor as well.

    People may of course think what they will in the face of all evidence to the contrary; however, "I think" is not evidence. What is more, a construction project as large as that intimated here would be virtually impossible to conceal for years on end in the face of sattelite surveillance. If anyone has evidence of the existence of any nuclear or CBR capability in Iraq at the time of our invasion, let's have it. No? I thought not!

  • wes alderson posted at 3:44 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9542

    Ron, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Yet, I have a distince memory of the photos in the "Arizona Republic" of a Russian-made intermediate range ballistic missile that was recovered by our troops from a hidden sight under the sands of the desert. After just a couple of articles about, all of a sudden, "poof" no more comments in the newspapers or TV.

    I have always wondered if we went so far to justify that war as to "plant" or fake that missile. Or, if as some people felt during the brief time it was discussed, it was one of many that had been part of a fleet of weapons of mass destruction.

    As part of that question, do you remember how Saddam Hussein ordered all his jets flown to Iran for protection during Desert Storm, and then, afterward, Iran would not give them back? I wonder what ELSE could have been "loaned" to Iran for safe keeping.

    These are just questions. As you will recall from your own military service, how wars are conducted is a tip of the iceberg phenomenon.

  • TN4994 posted at 4:34 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 2017

    Wes, I always wondered why it was Iran instead of Syria. Maybe it was a sect thing?

  • Whiplash Willy posted at 5:54 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    Whiplash Willy Posts: 916

    Read Saddams Bombmaker- copyright 2000 by Khirdan Hamza Ph.D. and Jeff Stein former U.S. army intelligence case officer. Saddam was closer than you think to having the bomb,as for biologicals what do you think we blew up in all those ammunition dumps causing gulf war illness?Nice of our Government to deny it to avoid paying compensation to our many ill veterans.

  • ArizAl posted at 8:54 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4162

    Wes, Ron is correct, there were no WMDs in Iraq. Even George W. Bush was forced to publicly admit that there wasn't. That's when the justification for the Iraq war was changed by the Bush administration from WMDs to getting rid of a dictator then again to spreading Democracy. Take your pick, they were all false. The real reason for the Iraq war was control of the Iraqi oil resources,especially at the time when Saddem Hussian was negotiating a deal to sell his oil to Russia, the highest bidder.
    You do remember U.N. Inspector for the United States, Mark Ritter, running around the country (U.S.) telling anyone who would listen that the WMD charge was false and that there were no WMDs in Iraq. The Bush administration ignored him, their own Inspector and replaced him with David Kay another Inspector who also did not find any WMDs. The war in Iraq was in the planning decades, before it's start, by the right wing in what was called "The New American Century Project."
    Sadly, what didn't make the news,except for Rueters, and the British Newspaper the Guardian, was that major oil corporations had already been having meetings as to how Iraq's oil reserves would be divided up by the Bush administration,before the war even started. It should also be said that the chemical weapons that Saddem Hussian pocessed were obtained from defense contractors from western countries, with the blessing of those governments.

  • Kahuna posted at 6:18 am on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    Kahuna Posts: 420

    And yet, when Cheney uttered the famous line

    “If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear from these surveillance policies in the Patriot Act.”

    everyone thought "isn't it wonderful to have this man protecting us".

    Amazing how the Patriot act, et al, are good under Bush or a GOP admin. but bad under Obama.

  • ronzim posted at 9:43 am on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    ronzim Posts: 3203

    Wes: No question there. Iraq was in posession of a small fleet of intermediate range missiles (SCUDS) which were little better then German V-2's in WWII. Missiles, however, are not weapons; they are the vehicles which deliver weapons.

    The chemical and biological stores which Iraq had destroyed long before our invasion were the potential weapons for missile use. It is very difficult to weaponize both chemical and biological substances for missile use. They are notoriously difficult to handle; often constitute a danger to ones's own people; and are the very devil to mate with a missile.

    At the delivery end, chemical weapons are very hard to target, have a short life and disperse easily in even the slightest breeze. Biological weapons are also mostly short lived and are highly promiscuous with regard to targets. In both cases, modern military forces are trained to deal with them, so the most likely victims are civilians. If, however, an attacker has modern missiles, excellent weaponizing technology, and accurate delivery systems, damage can be done. None of that was true in Iraq's case.

    In short, Iraq never had any nuclear weapons and had no reliable and effective way of turning its stores of chemical and biological substances into missile-thrown weapons.

    Former Squadron Commander/Executive Officer
    390th Strategic Missile Wing
    Strategic Air Command

  • wes alderson posted at 11:01 am on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9542

    Al, and Ron,

    I sure did NOT say Ron was wrong. Check my post. I did express some concern about that one missile that was discovered buried under the sands in Iraq. I still wonder about that.

    Ron propertly addresses the incorrect use of the word "proof" here in these blogs. A sceintist would call these things substantiting data or supporting evidence. Technically, as Ron will probably agree, a Proof in Logician's terms cannot be inuctive - only deductive.

    And if I were to get real nasty about logic, I would point out to you, Al, that you cannot even prove you exist to anybody else, according to Rene Descartes.

    Thank God for correlation co-efficients.


  • TN4994 posted at 11:42 am on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 2017

    Wes, are you sure it was a missle? It could be one of those missing attack subs from Ukraine. What better way to hide it but on land.[rolleyes]

  • Rick Slo Low posted at 3:56 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    Rick Slo Low Posts: 1369

    For years we have complained about all the drones in local ,state and federal government now when we finally get them to do something why are we still griping?

  • ArizAl posted at 4:13 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4162

    "And if I were to get real nasty about logic, I would point out to you, Al, that you cannot even prove you exist to anybody else, according to Rene Descartes."

    Wes, that would not be logic..that would be a mental dysfunction because I (we) don't care about Descartes on a down to earth blog. Impressed? Not really.[beam]

  • wes alderson posted at 10:27 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9542

    Al, logic is logic, and clear thinking is clear thinking, regardless of whether it is a local blog or a textbook. There are Universal rules which govern logic and this is not merely opinion - it is the way the Universe is put together. Look up Logos.

    Ron has far more expteritse as the former officer as noted in SAC than either you or me. He also clearly understand the difference between deduction, induction, and correlation. However, because of my own clients including HyGain/Hughes PLRS, I am sure Ron realizes that I have certain technological insights into the days when those two wars were going on.

    The Cartesion Paradox affects all of us in our evaluation of so called "objective" data.

  • ArizAl posted at 8:50 am on Thu, Sep 27, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4162

    Wes, you're being illogical, and only making yourself look silly by trying to impress common everyday people that you are intellectualy superior. That is only good for building your self esteem, Wes. All you have to do is to look at Mitt Romney with 2 MBAs, an excellent businessman but as a politician and government official, he ranks no higher than Curly of the three stooges. Wes, come off your pedestal and join the common people,we welcome you.

  • mythoughts posted at 6:16 pm on Thu, Sep 27, 2012.

    mythoughts Posts: 59

    May I be a member of the Wes/Ron Mutual Admiration Club, too???

  • wes alderson posted at 8:23 pm on Fri, Sep 28, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9542

    Al, get off it, please. Good straight thinking is logical in all applications whether you like it or not. I dare you - look up syllogisms and inductikon and DesCartes in the textbooks in the Library. They are not there to impress anybody - they are there to help the good old folks of all ages think clearly.

    And you don't really even mean I am being illogical, as per your above post. You mean I am being unreasonable and overly-demanding. And you are right. I don't expect you really to look up those things in the textbooks.

    And . . . to Mythoughts . . . it's true that I think highly of RonZim. But that is because he is the best mind up here in the Mountains, and he is always logical and factual. If you would like to join us in that quest, you are certainly welcome.

  • ArizAl posted at 10:50 am on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4162

    Good straight thinking and your ideas do not comport, Wes. Which is determintal even to your posts as many are dismissed as coming from someone who is out of touch with everyday folks. Hummmm, sounds like some other guy that straps dogs to the roof of his cars.

  • TN4994 posted at 8:26 pm on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 2017

    Al, the dog was in a dog-crate type enclosure, which was strapped to the SUV
    I have it on good authority that both the crate and straps were tested at ACME Labs, a bona fide subdivision of ACME Corp. Proud supplier of incendiary items and entrapment devices to Willie Coyote for over 25 years.

  • ArizAl posted at 1:54 pm on Sun, Sep 30, 2012.

    ArizAl Posts: 4162

    AAAhhh,the free markets at work. Wylie,Willie? Either one a Prime Minister of Israel?

  • Rick Slo Low posted at 1:41 pm on Mon, Oct 1, 2012.

    Rick Slo Low Posts: 1369

    And now he wants to strap the 47% to the front of his car at least we won't be thrown under the bus.

  • wes alderson posted at 7:15 pm on Mon, Oct 1, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9542

    Al, you are an ingima. Sometimes I find myself totally against your point of view, but am able to understand and relate to your logic and facts.

    At other times, I may agree with your point, but see that you were totally illogical in your derivation. This is about a 50/50 split.

    To your rude statment that my "logic does not comport with everyday folks ". . .. I should care? Logic is logic and stands as an independent rationale aside from human mental meandering. I know that the honest RonZim would agree with me about that.

    In other words, to go over your head, neither you nor anybody else can question the theorems of logic merely to try to make them fit everyday life. Anybody who tries to do that is automatically wrong in his or her views, because of contractictions in derivation.

    You seem to think of logic as everyday "Street Jargon,:" and thank God it is way above that.

    You do far better when you attack my "facts "because sometimes you are right. Youc cannok attack logic that is a Universal Rationale.


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