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What? International Building Codes in Pinetop-Lakeside?

Posted: Friday, September 21, 2012 5:00 am

To the Editor:

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  • Discuss

Welcome to the discussion.


  • Fltcep posted at 8:23 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Fltcep Posts: 4

    The "International" in International Bulidng Code is kind of a misnomer. These "International" codes were developed by three organizations, in the US, that were already administering codes in the US on a regional level. The intent is to develop standards that are indeed standard throughout the US and in some instances they have been adopted in other countries.

  • White Mountain Resident posted at 9:47 am on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    White Mountain Resident Posts: 112

    I commented on this letter a few days ago and for some reason the WMI didn't post my comments. I'll try again. The IBC is a USA nonprofit produced product that attempts to take the numerous regional and local building codes and distill them into a universal code that can be applied throughout our country so we can all be assured that when we acquire a building/residence, wherever we may reside, it is safe to occupy. The code makes it more efficient for contractors and less likely that major flaws in construction will be missed. It is not a conspiracy by some outside entity to take over the country. Direction and acceptance on how a building is safely constructed has nothing to do with private property rights. In this case our local government leaders are actually serving and protecting citizens.

  • lakesider posted at 12:34 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    lakesider Posts: 832

    Please be more specific about what is bothering you by not equivocating common-sense building codes with International Laws.

    Should your future comments concern, say, the price of rice in China - first name the price, and THEN discuss why this price is violating your trust or bothering you otherwise.

  • jim beck posted at 1:37 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    jim beck Posts: 795

    To the above posts: Henry Lamb wrote an essay on the subject. It is brief and to the point and can be read by Googling: " Agenda 21 is in your community." For the past five years I have attended most important Town meetings in PTLS. I was on the Town's 2020 Vision Committee, and the PTLS General Plan Advisory Committee. After reading Mr. Lamb's essay I was stunned to see the Town operating lock-step in line with the Agenda 21 plan, and I believe the public should be informed, hence my original letter on the ICC, since there is a connection.
    It's really obvious as to what is happening, not just in PTLS, but throughout the nation,(and world). Our Town Manager is a member of the International Town Management Association,or ICMA, (which is directly tied to the U.N. directive, Agenda 21), and in the manager's contract with the Town it states that he must fully participate in ICMA.
    A few years ago the Town adopted a Town Plan which is also right in line with Agenda 21 objectives,
    By now readers may have realized that I support U.S. Sovereignty. I support, honor and respect our U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, and believe that unless we preserve and adhere to these sacred documents we will lose our freedom and liberty.
    For these reasons I am opposed to any/all International codes,rules, regulations, statutes, laws or ordinances used in PTLS, Arizona, or America, particularily in light of all the concern and discussions regarding what President George H. W. Bush and others have called a New World Order. I realize that by making public statements of this nature I will be termed a 'conspiratorialist,' by the uninformed, but I'd like to ask them why then has eight states introduced Stop Agenda 21 bills this year: Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, Kansas, Louisiana, Minnesota, New Hampshire and Tennessee? And why does PTLS planning so closely adhere to this International agenda? To better insure our own safety, I would prefer to stick to (or update/improve), American codes.I also think it is very healthy to question government and to dialoge with the public on matters of importance.

  • AZBoomer posted at 2:09 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    AZBoomer Posts: 552

    Right on Jim! [thumbup]

  • Funny Like A Clown posted at 4:41 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    Funny Like A Clown Posts: 9

    And the black helicopters and WTO police cars are coming! It is so sad that a once great civic organzation like PVC has become dominated by a conspiracy-theory-driven group completed off base and obviously not concerned with the reality of solving local problems. Sad.... very sad...

  • WhoAmI posted at 6:04 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    WhoAmI Posts: 10

    It's all a big conspiracy, Jim! Maybe we should ask for all of their birth certificates next....[cool]

  • wes alderson posted at 6:13 pm on Fri, Sep 21, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935

    [thumbup] I agree, right on Jim.

    But let me give a couple of simpler explanations:

    1. We in the USA and the local gobernments had the right to set our own standards in such matters. If the World Organization gains the ability to supress our rights as a local community, then who knows what they will try next.

    2. Zoning requirements are NOT "one size fits all." In parts of Arizona, we need special attention due to forest fire defense. In parts of California, earthquakes must be a concern, so building codes must require foundation clamps.

    3. Different electrical codes are required in areas that use 240 volt or 50 HZ power line current, vs 120 vote 60 HZ like we do.


    All in all, it makes sense to leave many decisions such as this up to local government, for sake of freedom, and safety.

  • jim beck posted at 1:03 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    jim beck Posts: 795

    To Funny Like A Clown, What is sad is how utterly ignorant a large majority is to reality.
    To start, you mention that PVC was a "once great civic organization," yet PVC is still really in its infancy since it was organized only a few years ago, (this immediately puts you on weak footing). PVC is not a conspiracy driven group, but we will call a spade a spade. Your problem is that you have suckered up to the media propaganda that instantly dismisses any suggestion of conspiracy---as if this notion is always ridiculus and that to conspire is a human impossibility. I might remind you of a few PROVEN conspiracies throughout history:
    1. The assassination of president Abraham Lincoln.
    2. Watergate burglary and cover-up.
    3. the 1987 Iran-Contra affair.
    4. the 1995 Sarin gas attack on the Tokyo subway system.
    There are hundreds of conspiracies throughout history. To deny them is to dismiss historical fact, and human nature. There was a book written in 1971, by author Gary Allen, called "None Dare Call It Conspiracy." Allen explained how the Establishment uses their controlled media to develop a patent response to anyone suggesting a certain action is a conspiracy by immediately ridiculing or dismissing the suggestion as nonesense. Over the years this practice, after being heard by the public over and over again, has caught on for those that are easily influened. The result is that now we have individuals like you who is convinced that anyone making such a claim should never be taken seriously. The problem that such a mind-set creates is that it opens the door wide for actual conspiracies to occur right under the nose of the public. The result could be extremely dangerous, (far more dangerous that the one making the conspiracy claim).
    For instance, I believe the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 was a conspiracy by a few bankers to gain control of the nation's monetary policy, while fleecing the public of its wealth, and in tern making those few bankers wealthy beyond imagination.
    Rather than citicize me or PVC, I suggest you become educated because in this 'information age' you are only revealing yourself to be uninformed.

  • jim beck posted at 1:10 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    jim beck Posts: 795

    I might also add that it's cowardly to make charges and call names when using a fictitious name on-line, (like Funny as a Clown, or Who am I, etc.). It becomes very difficult to give you any credibility or respect when you won't even stand behind your opinions by giving your real name. Whether you agree with me or not, at least I have enough conviction to, right or wrong, expose my identity publicly rather than taking pot-shots in the dark.

  • wes alderson posted at 6:55 pm on Sat, Sep 22, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935

    Take it easy, Jim. You are clearly right, and the Clown's name is appropriate for his incorrerct statements. He is just a clown.

    Of course, you are also right that the Clown is hiding behind his pen name instead of making statements with self-confidence . . . . and I venture to say, that is because he has no self-confidence, and is merely one of the weaklings here in the White Mountains.

    Yes, of course he has freedom of speach just like you and me. He has the right to be wrong.

  • lakesider posted at 3:43 pm on Mon, Sep 24, 2012.

    lakesider Posts: 832

    I read your link and have a question about this: "The Auto-DR provision defined above actually gives government the right to dictate the temperature in your home, and the ability to enforce it."

    Where does this type of enforcement read in the Auto-DR provision? I googled "auto-dr provision" and got a lot of stuff about how phones communicate over the Internet.

  • Funny Like A Clown posted at 1:37 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    Funny Like A Clown Posts: 9

    Sounds like I hit a nerve with Jim and Wes.... if I am not mistaken, PVC claims to be the heirs of the 2020 Vision Committee... an organization that began about 15 years ago? So if PVC claims to be the heirs of this committee, which they usually do at every opportunity, I FIND IT SAD that such a great committee, which was touted as a conduit for information and a "steward" to use the word so often used by members of the committee, has become so completely off-message and has no interest in serving its original purpose. I find it SAD that PVC is focusing its attention on, yes conspiracy theories, instead of trying to solve local problems such as Woodland Lake Park, and other issues that PVC once was helpful in addressing.

    I never personally attacked Jim or Wes... I don't care if you use your real name or not.... I don't care if anyone uses their real name on this site or not... that is up to them.... however, to say that I have "no conviction" or am a "weakling" without even addressing what I had to say about PVC's purpose is very telling.... you obviously have no answer to why PVC (a group that is supposed to focus on local issues) has become a group that is more concerned with issues of national sovereignty and putting flouride in the water supply... :)

    Do I amuse you?

  • wes alderson posted at 9:56 pm on Tue, Sep 25, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935

    To Mr. Clown,
    And to Mr/Ms Who-Am-I,

    You are right, Clown - you two "people" did hit a nerve. The reason is that it was only a few days ago that Jim Beck was discharged from Summit Hospital after heart surgery. And you know it. I have the darkest imaginable thoughts about a person who would attack somebody using a fake name, when he is fresh out of surgery that is life-saving.

    The Lord saves a special place for people like you two.

    Please allow me to address a couple of your concerns about Peoples' Vision Committe, although I am not a member. I know many of those who are:
    1. You ask why the focus on toxins in the water? How about the fact that we all want water to be as free of carcinogens and radioactive elements as possible? You drink it too.
    2. You are also in error about 20-20, of which I was one of the Chairs. 20-20 was disbanded because it came too close to revealing the truth about certain unethical practices on Town Council. We can't have that, now, can we?

    To close, partly in anger, I think your soul would be well-served by apologizing to Mr. Beck for your attack while he is laid low.

    Wes Alderson.

  • Funny Like A Clown posted at 7:40 am on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    Funny Like A Clown Posts: 9

    Again, this entire discourse is SAD because Wes insists on making issues about everything other than what the discussion is about in order to distract and deflect any kind of actual response... Why would I apologize for pointing out that PVC doesn't focus on local issues as I feel they should?

    I never personally attacked Jim Beck. I actually enjoyed his letter to the editor about the care he received at Summit and thought it very commendable. I did read in his letter how he was admitted on Monday Sept 10th.... and I have responded to his comments on this letter which have been written on the 21st and 22nd... I assumed he was doing fine since he's been able to post freely here, and vigorously...

    If he is indeed still "laid low" as you say, and you must know because you are a good friend of his, then I wish him nothing but a speedy recovery.... And I hope my spot in "the hot place" that you have reserved for me is being kept nice and warm.....

    Even so.... PVC should stick to local issues that are of far greater importance than chasing conspiracy theories and being a voice box for the far-right in this community.... They (and we) would be far better served...

  • wes alderson posted at 10:50 am on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935

    Clown, thank you for wishing our friend Jim, a speedy recovery.

    By the way, you do know, don't you, that on some of the more important and sweeping letters to the Editor, the Editor can and does save them for posting as far in advance as several weeks. For example, last year I was in the hospital for my own heart condition, and one of my letters was posted during that time.


  • Funny Like A Clown posted at 12:49 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    Funny Like A Clown Posts: 9

    Now that the niceties are out of the way.... I still want to make the point that PVC should focus on issues of local concern and stop trying to interject international conspiracy theories into their efforts... It makes them look silly and less and less credible... the problem is that I believe it is too late for PVC to regain any of its credibility as long as it is focused on issues that are not of a direct local concern....

  • jim beck posted at 1:12 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    jim beck Posts: 795

    While I appreciate Wes coming to me defense in light of my recent setback, I hold no animosity toward Clown regarding that issue, rather I'll address Clown's charge that PVC should only focus of local issues. My question to him would be: What if local issues directly connect to bigger issues outside the community? For instance, PTLS planning runs parallel with the Agenda 21 directive. If you were to do the research you would also discover this fact. The same with the International Cities Management Association, (ICMA), which the PTLS Town manager is a member of, and of which the taxpayers in PTLS pay all his dues, subcriptions and junkets to, is also a branch of Agenda 21. This all may sound conspiratorial to Clown, and it may sound as if we are delving into areas we should not be, but in my opinion it is safer for our community to research and discover all factors that affect us, and pass that information on to the voters.
    You must remember that the 2020 Vision Committee was formed by the Town. A Town secretary and the Town Planner attending all our meetings, and as long as we followed, lock-step in the direction the Town wanted us to, we remained in tact. The moment we attempted to get closer to the "people," (i.e. have our own email address and web-site, etc.), or provide critical comments to Town actions, we were disbanded.
    Clown, PVC does not have to do anything, "your way." We follow our own path, and all decisions are voted on democratically by the steering committee. I suspect you are an employee or have close connections to the Town, and just don't like that we can,(and are), critical of poor local representation or improper action the Town may take, and you use this forum to discredit us. That's your right, but in the end we will see if your comments worked.
    We intend to keep you busy, however, as we don't intend to change just because you want us to.

  • TN4994 posted at 6:18 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    TN4994 Posts: 3011

    Not living in the PTLS area, I only request that you find a better acronym. PVC brings images of plastic pipe to my mind.

  • wes alderson posted at 6:27 pm on Wed, Sep 26, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935

    In my opinion, the Peoples' Vision Committee, during the few meetings I listened in on, did PRECISELY what they should be doing on local issues - including those local issues which are connected to national and international issues.

    Clown - you cannot separate local issues including the economy from national issues such as the economy. It is not like we live in a locked up facility in the Mountains, isolated from the larger reality that exists in the rest of the wolrd.

    The People's Vision Committee does a great job for the citizens of the area.

  • wes alderson posted at 10:16 am on Thu, Sep 27, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935

    And more, to Clown and Whathisname,

    Don't you get it?
    Almost every local issue is connected to a national issue or international issue. Merely by living in Pinetop-Lakeside does not isolate us from the National banking Industry, interest rates, unemployment, water standards and air pollution and certain not weather.

    Get it? The whole world breathes the same metaphoric air.

  • Funny Like A Clown posted at 1:18 pm on Fri, Sep 28, 2012.

    Funny Like A Clown Posts: 9

    PVC can run itself however it wishes... into the ground, if it wishes... my opinion is that we are more in need of a group focused directly on local issues than a group distracted international conspiracy theories. If they want to be a group completely focused on international conspiracy theories then they should change their mission statement.

    Directly from their webpage: "The Vision: Our vision is to preserve the unique environmental qualities of the community for the citizens of Pinetop-Lakeside and their children into the future. The Mission: Our mission is to increase and improve communication, and education, between the broad based community of Pinetop-Lakeside and its local governance to bring about the community vision, and to foster greater citizen participation in planning and exercising that vision."

    I think they should focus on preserving the unique environmental qualities of the community as they said they would... By doing otherwise, PVC is becoming irrelevant and clownish. I should know...


  • wes alderson posted at 4:33 pm on Fri, Sep 28, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935

    Clown, let's just look at one example of what you just said about the mission statetment:" . . . . preserve the enfironmental quailites of the community for the citizens . . . "

    Yes, this is a local issue. Unfortunatly, if civilization worldwide succeeds in pollution the Earth's atmosphere, that includes the air we breathe here on the mountain, and therefore the local issue is also an international issue.

    If you choose not to see this, and to put on the blinders, that is your business. Most of us realize you have the right to be wrong and even talk about it.

  • Funny Like A Clown posted at 11:01 pm on Sat, Sep 29, 2012.

    Funny Like A Clown Posts: 9

    Wes, I thought you support PVC and Jim Beck's points against internationalism? "If civilization worldwide succeeds in pollution the Earth's atmosphere, that includes the air we breathe here on the mountain, and therefore the local issue is also an international issue." Isn't that the whole point of international ideas such as "Agenda 21?" Based on their statements, I'm sure that PVC and Jim Beck do not believe in global warming, so you must disagree with them based on your statement?

    This is again precisely why a group that says their mission is to focus on our local community, shouldn't become distracted by international conspiracy theories involving eye-rolling connections to local community efforts. It is a waste of time and energy that should be focused on things like saving Woodland Lake Park--which apparently no one cares about anymore because groups like PVC have stopped being active about it... Very frustrating--there are enough groups out there that are focused on bringing down internationalism... PVC should focus on local issues...

  • wes alderson posted at 2:36 pm on Sun, Sep 30, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935

    Clown, it stuns me to seee that you actually don't think we breathe the same air in the White Mountains that everybody else in the World breathes.

    respectfully I must state that you are both short -sighted, non-knowelgeable and illogical to make this last comment. Jim Beck is a personal friend of mine, we have been in the same music group together, and in the Lakeside Writers' Group together. I am the one who noninated him for the 20-20 Vision Committee. Of course I support him.

    Of course Jim believes that global warming is occurring and has seen the same facts that I (the old weather forecaster) have seen. The difference between what Jim and Ron and I believe and what you do not see is, there are numerous ways to solve the climate change problem - and neither Jim nor I feel that we must solve the porblem by yielding our sovreignty to the Unite Nations.

    For you to feel Agenda 21 is the only answer is like saying that water is the only compound that can be frozen.

    Of course PVC must address issues which overlap both local and international concerns. Think. THINK!

    May I suggest you attend a PVS Meeting? The best way to obtain facts is to attend a meeting as see for yourself.

  • Funny Like A Clown posted at 9:49 am on Mon, Oct 1, 2012.

    Funny Like A Clown Posts: 9

    I'm glad to know that Wes is not only Jim Beck's spokesperson, but of all PVC apparently...

    As typical, Wes completely avoids the real question and distracts to try to make an irrevlevant point or to try to discredit anyone who writes something different than what he thinks...

    My entire purpose in writing my comments has been to voice my opinion that PVC should focus on issues of a local concern, rather than trying to make international conspiracy theories their focus. I feel it is a disservice to their members and to those who are interested in local issues that a group that claims to be their voice is not addressing local issues.... It has nothing to do with breathing the same air as the rest of the world, Wes. If PVC wants to be the Sierra Club or Americans for Prosperity or any other group that is lobbying on either side of national or international issues, then PVC is wasting its time... We need advocacy groups for Local issues... not a wannabe, international conspiracy-driven group that become sillier and more irrelevant with every post you and Jim make...

    But of course, Wes will now have a ridiculous retort that doesn't address anything I've said and will say that I'm the illogical one.... God forbid someone challenge the might and majesty of the superior Wes Alderson!!


  • wes alderson posted at 7:59 pm on Mon, Oct 1, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935

    Clown, I don't know what your problem is. I am not even a member of PVC. I have emphysema (COPD due to breathing too much bad air..

    So here we find you attacking Jim Beck shortly after his heart attack, and me while I am trying to outlast my COPD.

    You are basically rude and hearless for making fun of us for that, by the way.

    Nobody in PVC has ever said anything about "Conspiracy" unless you showed up to ask a question about that subject. However, YOU exhibit certain symptoms of sociopatholgy that cause me great concern.

    I strongly re-estate my suggestion to you that you go to one of the PVC Meetings and find out for yourself. You don't hve to agree with me - get your own facts.

    In the mean time, I find you to be a totally sickening individual for your attidue of confrontation without knowledge.

  • wes alderson posted at 8:00 pm on Mon, Oct 1, 2012.

    wes alderson Posts: 9935



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