David Roberts

David Roberts - The Independent

Interesting press release from Congress.org, excerpted here in part. Arizona Sen. John McCain — when asked about Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Mike Lee and other Tea Party-affiliated senators — had some harsh words about his supposed GOP compatriots’ reluctance to send Senate conferees to a multi-house conference to settle budget differences.

“But McCain has held his ground, suggesting (Oct. 3) that senators who object to conference negotiations don’t understand ‘how business has been done’ in Congress. Moreover, McCain asserted that most GOP senators agree with him that it’s time to stop stalling and go to conference.”

I would suggest that Cruz and others know exactly how business has been done in Congress, and that they have been sent there expressly to stop that method of business.

“How business has been done” in Congress has resulted in a $17 trillion deficit. That’s the deficit if you don’t include the upcoming unfunded liabilities in Social Security, Medicare, Obamacare, federal pensions and military pensions.

Why would Cruz and others … anyone, really … want to conduct business like that?

“How business has been done” in Congress has resulted in a 7 to 14 percent unemployment rate. That’s the rate if you don’t include those who have given up looking for work because there isn’t any.

Why would Paul and others … anyone, really … want to conduct business like that?

On another subject, since there is around $2 trillion constantly flowing into government coffers, shutdown or not, why exactly do people think the government will default on its debt in the next month if and when the debt ceiling is not raised?

Why not just stop paying other parts of a bloated government? Why is it always debt payments (with interest rates next to zero) that are automatically assumed to be cut? Something in the law I’m missing?

This government takes in roughly $250 billion a month. Of that, it takes only $18 billion to service the debt. There will be a default only if this president orders it so.

On a more cheerful note, I have friends who received a letter from the IRS regarding their household tax return. In trying to communicate with the IRS about said letter, they found that the IRS is closed for the government shutdown.

How refreshing to learn that the IRS is a “nonessential” agency.

I’ve been saying that for years.

Reach the reporter at droberts@wmicentral.com

(55) comments

Desertmonkey

John McCain is a traitor. He has betrayed the people of Arizona on Obamacare, Syria and the shutdown. He should be recalled IMMEDIATELY

ArizAl

It's interesting that Dave Roberts is advocating for a continued government shut down and for the government to default on it's debts. An economical theory that is so flawed and full of holes that tea party congressman Mike Lee of Utah found out the hard way. By voting to shut down the government , Mike Lee singlarly shut down Utah's largest
employer, the federal government. He did not care that the IRS has one of the country's biggest operations there. When Congressman Lee, like Dave Roberts have such a narrow idelogical beliefs that they put their party ahead of the people of america, they either don't realize or don't care that when they shut the american government, they also inflict a lot of hurt to the american people and damage our country.
Congressman Mike Lee has now found out that the the "government" he bad mouthed so much is the same one that is bringing prosperity to his home state of Utah. The people of Utah did not like being unemployed, and they let him know in no uncertain terms that his vote to shut down the government unless Obamacare was defunded is the same vote that shut down Utah's largest employer, Uncle Sam.

BillyD43

Big ArizAl, [smile][wink][thumbup][thumbup][thumbup][thumbup]!

rooster

Not to be insulting, but if you agree with the actions of a moron does that make you NOT a moron?

wes alderson

You're right, Rooster! This is why I always view what BillyD says with extreme skepticism.

rosettasister

The tale of an alleged “coup” inside the tea party-inspired FreedomWorks organization

wnd.com/2013/10/savage-america-died-on-this-day/

Glenn Beck

“When you lose Jon Stewart on Obamacare, you’re done.”

That was Glenn Beck’s verdict after viewing a segment of “The Daily Show,” in which the influential Stewart expressed serious doubts about the new health-care program, and wondered whether or not Democrats were lying to him.

In a dramatic move, Beck revealed a secret he’s been keeping for more than a year: the tale of an alleged “coup” inside the tea party-inspired FreedomWorks organization.

According to Beck, the president of the group was escorted out of his office by armed guards last year, and was told never to come back.

The original leadership of FreedomWorks was later reinstated, but as Beck explains, “There was a coup during the election, and it was powerful.

They were trying to get rid of the libertarian, tea-party-minded power players, and first and foremost on that hit list was Matt Kibbe and his allies.

They didn’t like the fact that FreedomWorks was cleaning house in the GOP … that they were targeting people like Orrin Hatch.

It didn’t sit well with the Karl Roves of the GOP world.”

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/10/09/glenn-beck-reveals-a-story-he-hasnt-been-able-to-share-for-over-a-year/

[Fascinating!]

BillyD43

Tsk, tsk, tsk, Wes, you still don't understand, do ya! Get help!

Barnyak

Ted Cruz looks and thinks like Joe McCarthy... He's fast becoming the most hated person in politics.

wes alderson

The intersting aspect of BillyD's Psychopathology is that he is one of a specfic type that is so adept at self-justification, that he can always prove to himself that he is right and everybody else is wrong.

One of the factors he fails to appreciate is that the opposite caste of our points of view make it impossible that we will agree on most issues. This does not mean either of us is wrong or right.

The only person who is wrong is the one that insists his way is the only way. And that is what BillyD does constantly. Billy, there is a new pychology clinic near Summit Hospital. It takes Medicare. You would be able to receive compassionate care there. Please try it.

-Pastor Wesley.

AZBoomer

"they also inflict a lot of hurt to the american people and damage our country."

Kinda like Obamacare?

ALLSURE

Ted Cruz is speaking for the working people of this great country. Its so easy to give away someone else s hard earning money to the ones who chose not to work or pull themselves up. This country of ours is becoming a "give me" and I might thank you. Too many programs that are created are in place to help you temporarily, not permanently way of life. Lets take just one, EBT (food stamps) one can even buy a bag of ice and even buy your meals at fast food establishments. REALLY? Elected officials such as Ted Cruz are our only hope. John McCain rides the fence and changes like the direction of the wind.

ArizAl

"Kinda like obamacare?"

A perfect example of the right wing nut republicans inability to distinguish the difference between a positive (allowing more americans access to healthcare) and a negative,(forcing over 1 million american workers off their jobs into welfare).

George Levey

This is so confusing. Somebody explain why people get fired from their jobs and fined by the government for not having health care coverage. They told me President Obama would take care of my health care. Why is his plans changed now?

BillyD43

Once more, Al, [smile]!

Kahuna

Is Cruz as mad as a Hatter,
Spouting twenty one hours of chatter?
Stoking the rabble
With insane psycho babble,
And in the end it really didn't matter.

We are being Cruzified !

ArizAl

George, er Wes,

Wes, you well know that employers do the firing and that there are no fines because of Obamacares until next 2015 when you file your 2014 taxes.

By the way Wes, don't forget to thank President Obama for giving you more healthcare benefits on Medicare, for giving more healthcare benefits to veterans on Tricare, for giving more healthcare to students until the age of 26, and Wes, as a pastor give thanks to President Obama for giving everybody in the United States, including Dave Roberts and all the staff at WMI additional healthcare benefits as the result of Obamacares.

BillyD43

Wes, never called you a name that didn't fit your actions.
I just read one of the most appropriate descriptions of the TP-GOP "legislators" and their followers (you know who you are) ever! Since the WMI allows the extended discourses of the far right, please note the following from the reasonable and intelligent left.
When the Republicans realized they had shut down the government they CHEERED on the floor! Members of the Press (almost to a man/women) described their apparent "elation" and the word "giddy" was the most heard and reported attribute assigned these morally bankrupt, emotional-juveniles posing as self-important adults.
The repeal of the ACA is nothing more then a "pretense"! Their intent all along (and even when running for office) was to shut our government down and even to go so far as to default on our nation's obligations. These seditionists are still fighting the War of Northern Aggression and hate (let me repeat that) hate on some level this country and this Union. They will do more damage to our people, our economy and our way of life then any outside terrorist group could ever dream of achieving!
These so called Republicans are an erratic coalition of coded-racists, “conspicuous hypocrites”, Neo-Confederates, Birthers, Secessionists, those who would impose theocracy, the cognitively challenged, anti-intellectuals, science-deniers, Homophobes, Sexists, Xenophobes, Absolutists and those ever overtly vocal professing Christians who act anything but (using the tenants of their faith selectively, narrowly, without context and then doing so as a weapon to bludgeon to near-death the poor, the sick, women, working people, non-whites and the non-believer)! They are even capable of booing an American soldier voluntarily serving in a theater-of-war!
Having all the attributes of low-functioning sociopaths... to a man/women they discharge with abandon platitudes like Freedom, America, Family, Patriot, and Values and do so with a projectile speed and an indiscriminate-dispersal (while having no thought, genuine feeling-invested or understanding of the sacrosanct concepts in question)!
For them the medium in which they swim is Hate Radio, paranoia and conspiracy (and the more fantastic... the more readily transmitted... as though a horrible contagion). These are Reactionaries who rather then being for someone or something are for reasons of raw unflinching pathological self-interest against everyone... "not them"! They live in a world free-of-facts, where history is to be revised (accordingly) and the only voices they hear are their own self-reinforcing feverish rants!
This necrotizing-vestige and fading shadow of what was formerly the establishment Party of Reagan have now made of what was once the call and privilege of Public Service nothing more then a "reductive pursuit" and one intent on serving ever narrowing-interests and the illusion of purity. Never to be sullied by the hard work-of-governance or a need to actually have the capacity of compassion... these craven, puerile, destructive, intellectually-lazy, full-on nihilist “Place Holders” see both compromise and reasonable accommodation as the failings of capitulation and strive only to circumvent good-order, to-impede, slow and if allowed flat-line the progress of the nation.
They reject the very structures of our democracy, its intended healthy-tension, civility, discourse, debate and unity-of-purposes (no loyal opposition here). They brandish mini-constitutions like fetishes and all the while working to undo all that this guiding living-document has allowed us to achieve and the very society which has raised up around it (yes... they will save us by maiming, crippling and killing us)! For them their moral-universe extends no further then their petty concerns will take them... and even to a place where the theft of power by extortion is just another day's work!
If they cannot re-litigate a law “already” duly and democratically passed and invalidate the consensus of an election “already” held... they will in affect strap on a Weapon of Mass Economic Destruction... stand in our collective Public Square and detonate! By not relenting to their onerous terms they likewise threaten our irrevocable demise and unknowingly or knowingly their own murder-suicide (every Republican in the House, the Tea Party and the Leadership will without question be held to account as accessories to this historic crime, this self-inflicted Pearl Harbor and even acts of treason)!
Their world is ever shrinking and circumscribed... they would make of a great nation a lesser thing! Their path is a descent downward in allegiance - to region (only), then state, then county, then city, then town, then fiefdom and finally to barricade the gates of their mind and then the door! They are the enemy within! They are the dry rot in the floorboards of our civilization! They are the cancer metastasizing through the body-
Thank you, Tank Carson for your excellent treatise!
BillyD

lonedon

mc cain is a Dem..

ronzim

Well, here is some more of the usual WMI journalistic standards which are not likely to make it into the WSJ.

First, the United States Congress was, last time I checked, a bicameral institution; thus, there could not be anything such as "multi house negotiations".

Second, the $17 trillions referred to is not the deficit; it it the debt.

Third, Mr. Roberts definitely has missed something about the law. The U.S. Treasurer (on average) pays each day's bills by combining 100% of revenue with borrowed funds to keep the checks flowing. On Oct 17th, with no debt ceiling increase, the Treasurer will be faced with a cash flow that will be about $1.4 billions per day less than the incoming bills (61% of which are mandated payments).

Moreover, the debt service is just the tip of the iceberg. What is of deep concern is what to do with the mounting pile of treasury instruments being presented for redemption when there is no cash with which to pay them. Demands will regularly increase from billions to tens of billions, and more, and the world's reserve currency would quickly collapse. The word "panic" hardly suffices.

Mr. Roberts asks why we just don't stop paying bloated government which would require a reduction of half a trillion per year, immediately, just to end the deficit and allow the CURRENT revenue to pay everything. It should be obvious, even to a freshman econ student, the such a massive cut would itself wreck the economy and vastly reduce the revenues of the government, into the bargain, requiring more cuts with more contraction, and so on, into a death spiral. The proof lies in the damage already done by the sequester and now a fresh onslaught by government shutdown which is costing the economy a cool $160,000,000 perday.

Rick Slo Low

Ricks RULE OF ODOR ,both parties stink ,the government is shut down ,open a new one.

wes alderson

Thank you for these facts and reasoning, Ron Zim. You point to a looming crisis. That crisis of how to pay for the daily bills is certainly true. Especially your tip of the iceberg comment.

The problem others do not see is that increasing the debt limit each time such a crisis comes along, merely postpones REAL corrrective action. At this point I ask YOU what you feel REAL correction should be. Perhaps you agree with me that we would prefer not to have our life savings confiscated as certain politicians have suggested be done.

Thank you once again, for pointing out the difference between the deficit annual budget and the total debt. Please do not seem to get that fact.

On the easier side, frequently, through history, congress has been refered to as "both houses," not because it does not understand the difference between house and senate, but instead just to save words.

On a separate issue, some of us would not mind Billy D's difference of opionion, if only he would refrain from calling anybody who differs with his opionion names.

I look forward to calmer, wiser conversations now that you are back. You are a good man.

-Pastor Wesley.

RYAN M A

There are some, including myself, who view this 17% shutdown of Government a good thing. With Regard to Mike Lee or Ted Cruz, I think they are trying to stand on principle of smaller government and not voting for something "Obamacare" they do not believe in.
As for Mike Lee's home state and the IRS, again I believe there are some who would love for the IRS to go away, as well as the new data collection site in Utah. I could care less whether or not the People of Utah are mad at him, and I could care less if he gets re-elected. After reading Mike Lee's tax proposal, which was a continuation of separating people based on income, and a continuation of rewarding certain types of behavior--I'm not particularly a fan of his.

ArizAl

Ron and Billy ......EXCELLENT!!![thumbup],[thumbup],[thumbup],[thumbup][smile]

ArizAl

For the past 30 years the income gap between the very rich and the middle class has widen to where the very rich have increased their income by 270%, all the while the income of the middle class has remained virtually unchanged...stagnent.

With this in mind, let's examine what the republican party's othodoxy is concerning the plight of the middle class and the poor in America.

1. The republican party has consistently opposed raising the minimum wage for
american workers.

2. The republican party has consistently opposed equal pay for equal work laws for
women, such as the Lilly Ledbetter Act.

3. The republican party has consistently opposed the right of unions to effectiviely
represent workers in wage,benefits,safety,discrimination,and pension
negotiations. Instead they prefer workers go on social services.

4. The republicans in the House of Reps and John Boehner have now voted to slash $40 million dollars from the food stamp program, thereby, hurting millions of needy, poor Americans.


5. The republican party has consistently and agressively tried to take away
benefits from seniors, veterans, and the disabled, otherwise known as
entitlement cuts. That is part of their demands of opening up the government.


6. The republican party historically been opposed to Medicare and Social Security and has consistently tried to do away with those programs which, if done would inflict a lot of hurt on millions of seniors, veterans, and the disabled.


7. The republican party, by defunding Obamacare will force students,and young
people up to 26 yrs, starting out to buy their own insurance which may cost
them upwards of $200.00-$400.00/ month, depending on their health. It's bad enough that college costs are really high,republicans want to add another financial burden to students.

8. The republican party by defunding Obamacare will deny approx. 31 million uninsured americans a chance to buy health insurance at a low reasonable cost.

9. The republican party buy destroying Obamacre will inflict a hurt of additional expenses to seniors,the disabled, and veterans for the cost of their medicines by opening up the doughnut hole gap even wider. The cost will exceed $1,000.00
per year for all people on Medicare.

10. The republican party by destroying Obamacare, will revert to maximum coverage caps on all the policies of all Americans, thereby families that incur a catastrophic illness or injury will be forced to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars out of their pockets, causing many Americans to lose their homes,their savings, their pensions,and go into bankruptcy.

11. The republican party by destroying Obamacare will allow private health insurance companies to deny and price people out of the ability to be insured because of a pre-existing condition, thereby many will be forced into ACHSS, Medicaid and other social welfare programs.

12. The republican party by destroying Obamacare will deny women free preventative tests for breast cancer, diabetes, and other illnesses.

13. The republican party by defunding Obamcare will deny men free preventative tests for colon cancer, diabetes, prostrate cancer.

14. The republican party in additon to denying college students the right to stay on their parents health insurance is also actively working on denying college students the right to vote.

15. The republican party,at present is viciously hurting financially millions of Americans by holding holding our government hostage, unless they can hurt 31 million more americans financially.

That is the orthodoxy of the republican party, one of negative,uncaring, vicious,unchristain like,policies that are intended to send the middle class and the poor american families further down the drain.

Kahuna

Hmmm, who was Cruz palling around with this weekend?

1. Sarah Palin. The one who lied about death panels in the ACA.

2. A Tea Party / veterans rally where many were carrying Confederate flags at the gates of the white house. Nah, no racism there.

3. And this guy:

"I call upon all of you to wage a second American nonviolent revolution, to use civil disobedience, and to demand that this president leave town, to get up, to put the Quran down, to get up off his knees, and to figuratively come out with his hands up," said Larry Klayman of Freedom Watch, a conservative political advocacy group.

Bearly

McCain is an embarrassment to Arizona and a typical Washington politician elitist.
This country will only recover IF men like Cruz step up and do what they say they want to do.

ArizAl

Who did the republicans send out to the Veterans Memorial to head the protests?

republican Sarah Palin who never served as did Democrat Tammy Duckwoth.

republican Rafeal Ted Cruz, the Canadien, who also never served as did Democrat Charlie Rangel or Democrat John Kerry.

Albeit, there has never been any such two most unworthy people to lead the veterans protest for the republicans.

Can anybody point to any legislation Cruz or Palin have introduced or passed to help veterans and their families?

BillyD43

Was just reading some very interesting on-line articles.
Prior to my reiteration of their main themes, let me point out a couple of interesting facts.
The GOP (House and Senate) is willing to bring the world's financial markets utter devastation and chaos because of a 2.5% tax on medical devices (agreed to by the device manufacturers - potentially 31 MM new customers under the ACA) and the mandate that, if you don't chose to get health insurance you must participate (via a small tax) in health care costs now required to be paid by the already insured through premiums substantially higher than they should be. The GOP now says these are not the issues, but those of us with brains and common sense know that these are exactly the issues. Otherwise, pass clean bills and get on with making the sequester go away intelligently, raise the debt limit and go about making the PPACA even better than it now is.
Now, the comment from an Australian news source - "They have allowed the lunatics to run the asylum!" I kid you not. That is what many of the main financial heads of many countries are saying - now publicly!

BillyD43

And, Wes, no one is calling you names, just calling out your constant insipidness. Get help! Look to the Summit!

wes alderson

BillyD, Neither my efforts to avoid calling others names, nor the same efforts by other such as RonZim is insipid. Rather, it is called having good manners.

Frankly, I decided I had had enough of your bashing, a week ago, and I replied in kind, telling you just what I thought of you in the same style you use.

Arizona Al and TN asked me to retract what I said and apologize to you. I relalized they were right, and I apoligized to you, as well as pulling my comments off the site.
Why must we continually badger each other? Certainly all human beings have their weaknesses, including you and me.

I appreciate Al's and TN's efforts to be peacemakers. Can we both understand that it gives a terrible impression to other readers of the Opinion Section to see the way we are conducting ourselves, what with the negativity and insults?

Please consider how much better things would be if we simply cited each other on the content of our writings (and that of others) instead of letting petty differences constantly inflame us. I just arrived back at my medical apartment in Santa Monica and would be more than willing to discuss this with you on the phone. 310-452-0463.

-Pastor Wesley.

ronzim

The title of this editorial is "Guys like Cruz doing what they were elected to do", an assertion which is unsupported by the content of the article and by the facts on the ground.

While many TEA party candidates ran on a plank of small government, low taxes for the wealthy, a balanced budget and paying down the deficit, they did not run on a promise to shut down the government, wreck the nation and destroy the world economy. Mr. Roberts fails to differentiate between objectives and means.

Moreover, Mr. Roberts cannot asses the truth of his assertion until the 2014 election, at least, and the 2016 election, for sure. We will then know whether or not the TEA party caucus has satisfied the electorate. Nor can those who are re-elected be fully counted as political vindication, because some will be returned by gerrymandered districts with no regard to their national political legitimacy.

What is missing here is an assessment of proportion. No matter what that faction has promised, we must remember that they are only 8-10% of the congress and they represent a tiny share of the U.S. population. The enormous and growing political damage done to the GOP attests eloquently to the marginality of their program. While House members surely have a duty to their home districts, their oath of office imposes a far larger obligation. When the wishes and interests of any home district conflicts with those of the United States, congresspersons of integrity must give precedence to the needs of the nation.

BillyD43

Lunatics like Cruz, Lee and others were put in office to do two things, spout their lunatic, ignorant rhetoric and bring the country and the world financial structure to their knees. The gerrymandered lunatics put them in office and (shudder!) will keep them there unless common sense and intelligence take over. Will that happen? We'll see next year.

ronzim

This string inspires me to write a play which will be titled 'Ahistorical Remonstrances'.

ronzim

The cast for my play:

Dave Roberts: The Wizard of Oz
Wes: St. George (bring your own dragon to rehersals)
Speaker Boehner: Gulliver
K: Ophelia
Captain: Ahab (In mad pusuit of the great white collective)
Ryan: Don Quijote
Billy D: The wise Sancho Panza ( Earthy, right?)
President Obama: Roland (No, really! Think about it!)
Jeff: Leer
Marc: Marc (O.K. you try casting HIM!)
Az Al: Prince Valiant
Russ: Prince Valiant's mule
Che: The Oracle of Delphi
Senator Cruz: Nero
Senator Paul: Love child of Ayn Rand and Arnold Schwartzenegger
Rooster: Huck Finn
Michelle Bachman: Scarecrow from the Wizard of Oz
Paul Ryan: Tin Man from Oz
Mitch McConnell: Lion from Oz
Kahuna: Tom Sawyer
Barnyak: Lancelot du Lac
Rick Slo Low: SNL writer (Rules of Odor! Rich!)
Harry Reid: Sisyphus
Nancy Pelosi: Joan d'Arc
Glenn Beck: Nietzsche's man in cave
Rush Limbaugh: Senator Joseph McCarthy
Joe Biden: Jeremy Bentham
Senator Collins: Madam Bovary
Sean Hannity: Caligula
rosettasister: Katharine Graham
AZBoomer/ALLSURE: The Koch Brothers


That leaves just me and since this is my play - - - I can't pass the physical for Wonderwoman; I gave up leaping tall buildings at 75; and I'm too tall for Audie Murphie. I shall play Br'er Rabbit.

parkwmi

RONZIM - I think Dave Roberts should be the Village Idiot. It takes a village, and a newspaper, to raise an Idiot to such an editorial pedestal..

RYAN M A

RonZ, your better than the party line! If I may "they did not run on a promise to shut down the government"

Pleeeeeeaze Ron, you are well aware, they funded the government, everything except obamacare. Suggesting they are "shutting down government" is incredibly inaccurate even for you. Moreover, they are certainly more than 8-10% as you suggest, they are at least the majority of the house. This is how government is supposed to work, and exactly why we need more people who will not fall in line with the old, tired, been there too long republicans and democrats who have got us in the insurmountable financial mess we find ourselves currently in. Here is too hoping some of the lifetime congressmen find themselves out of a job in 2014, and we elect a few more people who will actually follow through on campaign promises and not fold to the party name.

Charos

Hey Ron,

You could cast yourself as Barry Soetoro's eunuch [wink].

2linden

Mr. Roberts - do you really think that these Congressmen were elected to stand their ground, even if it means the ruination of America? I can picture Senator Cruz, and others, with our Founding Fathers, standing their ground, and we would still be trying to approve a Constitution, because they didn't get everything their way.

ArizAl

On the night of October 1,2013 when the government shutdown was to start. The Senators,Democrats and SEnate republicans submitted a "clean continuing resolution",(CR) to the house to debate and vote on it. The CR is still in committee and cannot get a vote. Why? Republicans in the House of Representatives changed the rules that stated ANY member of the House of Representatives could offer to bring any resolution to be voted on by all members, The rule was changed in the middle of the night by republicans to read: "Sec.2 Any motion pursuant to clause 4 of rule XXII relating tto House Joint Resolution 59 MAY BE OFFERED ONLY BY THE MAJORITY LEADER OR HIS DESIGNEE."

Which means; only Eric Cantor has the power to bring out of committee any legislation submitted by the Senate to be voted on. Which also means that republicans were afraid that if the "clean resolution" submitted by the Senate was put to a vote, it would pass and spoil the republican's plants to shut down the government.

ronzim

Ryan: While the campaign rhetoric was quite rustic for those running for the HoR, on a general TEA Party slate, there is virtually no record of anyone saying they wanted to gain public office in order to shut down the government or destroy the global economy by defaulting on our bills.

The current count of TEA party extremists in the HoR, by Republican themselves, is about four to five dozen. That would be about 8-10% of the congress.

That is certainly not the way the government is supposed to run as you contend. The congress is supposed to operate on the basis of majority rule, by means of committee votes to the floor, and general votes on those bills. If your party loses at the ballot box and loses in the legislative process and loses in court and loses in the court of public opinion, you must step back and support majority rule and the rule of law.

Suppose you have a crime family in your neighborhood, specializing in human tafficking. They come to you one day and say that if you don't give them your wife and four little girls, they will burn down your house, shoot your dog, kill your relatives and let the air out of all your tires. You say no.
Then they say, "O.K., we will let you keep one of your family and we will let the air our of only three of your ties." You decline.
They next say, "Alright, you can keep two of your women and we will let the air out of only two tires." You dig in.
Then they say, "You keep three of them and we will let you tires alone." You tell them to take a leap.

Now this group gets very pouty and tells the world that in spite of their many compromises, you will not negotiate with them; therefore, the burning of your house and the murder of your realtives is your fault.

That is what is happening and there is no way to put a good face on it. Extortion is extortion.

ronzim

Charos: I can't pass that physical either.
parkwmi: A good improvement. Consider it done.

RYAN M A

ronZ,

You said a whole bunch but did not address any of my points. First of all, I never said anyone campaigned on a desire to shut the government down. I said------Nobody has "shut the government down", "destroyed the world economy, or wrecked the nation" as you suggest they are doing. 83% of the government is still up and running, and to suggest the House of Representatives has "shut the government down" is ridiculous and you know it.

As for the vote to fund everything but Obamacare, which is what we were talking about--the majority of the house voted to do just that--not 8-10% as you suggest. And whether you like it or not, people are elected by their constituents on a platform that they run on during the election process. People like Cruz, are doing exactly what they campaigned on and what they said they would do. Isn't it refreshing, to have an open honest debate and a fight on the republican side--I love it that people are not falling in line with the party, but falling in line with what they believe, and what they told their constituents they believed. That my friend is how it is meant to work.
We have become so accustomed to the Dems against the Repubs, that we have forgotten that even amongst people within the same party, there can be strong differences and you don't have to tow the party line. To me, always towing the party line IS the problem in Washington.

ArizAl

I don't know what world Ryan is living in, but why is it that everyone in the United States except Ryan and Sarah Palin knows that the government is shut down and that crucial services are not being done. and as the republican shutdown continues there will be less and less services done for the citizens of our country. Of course, the tea party extremists who hate the United States and all it stands for are very happy the government is shut down and will begin to default in 24 hours. Already our country's credit rating is on watch to be downgraded by the agencies in the U.S. and in the world.
That means that the republicans would put our country much,much further in debt than Obamacre ever could.

This is where common folk will sit back and think, 6 years ago republicans almost ruined the financial system of the United States, and now they are doing their best to ruin it again.

BillyD43

Wes, please don't look forward to a call from me. All I need to say to you (so far) has already been said. You simply cannot convince folks with intelligence deficit of anything that makes sense.
For the rest of you righties:
1. The PPACA = Good
2. The government shutdown = Bad
3. Reneging on the bills owed by the U.S. Government = Terrible
4. The Sequester = Bad
Nuff said!

RYAN M A

"everyone know that government is shut down and that crucial services are not being done."

The President, the white house, military, the congress, the courts, the FBI, CIA, NSA, the IRS and on and on and on all still operating. Like I said 83% is still fully operational, 17% are on paid vacation as voted unanimously by the House and Senate.

You simply cannot have a constructive conversation when someone is willing to put in print, complete false statements as the quote above. I have know clue why someone would do that, unless they just don't want to have a conversation, they want to just Make stuff up.

ArizAl

"The President, the white house, military, the congress, the courts, the FBI, CIA, NSA, the IRS and on and on and on all still operating. Like I said 83% is still fully operational, 17% are on paid vacation as voted unanimously by the House and Senate."


Typical right wing nut delusional extrapolation that rivals the lies of the "Cruzship Disaster." Ryan still lives in a fantasy world that dismisses over 1 million government off the job as normal. Excellent example of why republicans cannot govern "for the People."

che guevara

Ronzim , you are without a doubt one of the most insightful and creative fellows that I have ever encountered . Your concept for a play using the cast of characters from this blog site is a scream . I for one , missed reading your postings these past few weeks . Welcome back .

ronzim

Ryan: When I make comments here, I assume that my general audience has basic knlowledge of such matters as government, economics and science, and that they are also conversant with the generally accepted language used in relevant discussions. This saves having to use a large amount of space to make tortuous listings of term definitions and language clarifications.

For decades now the term "government shutdown" has been the lingua franca in reference to that action. We all know that 61% of the government budget is mandated; thus, when the term "government shutdown" is used, it can only refer to the 39% of government which is not mandated, unless a more expansive bill is signed by the president.

In the extant matter, the original bill presented by the House, threatened to shut down about 39% of government if the ACA was not scrapped. Massive public outrage resulted in successive bills which provided funding for parts of the 39% which would otherwise be included in the shutdown. It is pedantic for anyone to suggest that the term "government shutdown" means closing more than 39% of the government.

The federal government budget is so large, however, that shuttering even 20% results in massive economic costs, not to mention the personal hardships involved in the loss of paychecks and business losses.

In the matter of the proportion of the most energetic conservatives in the congress, I pointed out that their membership constituted roughly 8-10% of congressional strength. That is true. In response, you switched from membership proportion to voting records, which is not valid vis-a-vis membership. Even if 100% of PUBS vote for something which happens to be favored by the TEA party faction, that does not alter their proportion in the body. It merely signifies either solidarity or threat-induced voting to give the impression of it. Speaker Boehner was correct when he acknowledged that the GOP had lost the fight.

I continue to mantain that these actions have sufficiently annoyed voters, that the GOP will pay some kind of political price for so willfully defying the very large majority wishes of the American people. A year to elections.

RYAN M A

For decades now, the term "government shutdown" has incorrectly described a particular action. Shutdown by every definition means no longer in business. Maybe we should not use terms that clearly misrepresent actual reality to further support an agenda. There has been no government shutdown, as I have said time and again. And for Al and Ron, the 17% went on a paid vacation that was not scheduled. That's it, period.

Naturally as we have come to expect from the politicians in Washington, nothing changed, the Republicans caved, the Democrats continue to grow government at lightning pace, the federal debt is out of control, and Obamacare is still the disaster it was thought to be.

Ron, I do agree with you on one thing, we will have elections in a year. I look forward to politicians from both side of the isle getting booted out on their cans, and also look forward to electing people whom might actually stand for something instead of the next election.

ArizAl

No matter what you want to call it Ryan. Republicans cannot keep on going trying to govern by creating crisis after crisis, that not only increases the national debt, it also increases higher unemployment and higher numbers on social programs. Additionally,
essential government services are curtailed or stopped completely.
The estimated financial costs to the economy by the numbers crunchers is said to be
$24 Billion dollars and that is not figuring the costs of higher interest rates that the government had to pay to sell government securities,bonds on the market.

The question now is, are the conservative right wingers who have always maintained they are the fisical conservative party, pay for the $24 billion dollar loss they inflicted on our country for nothing at all but to cause misery to the country and the people.
Everyone knows the answer, if the republicans,especially tea party republicans, had any sense of responsibility or patriotism they would pay for the damages they caused our country, $24 billions worth.

ronzim

Ryan: In this matter, you are like nothing so much as the bandit who shot his way into the cash room of a casino and made off with all of their $500 chips.

show lowian

Flake, McCain are not in Washington DC to represent "We the People" they are there to represent themselves. I believe that Rand Paul, Ted Cruz stood up although it was not popular with all the lifetime politicians that were doing business as usual and don't want the boat rocked. Our president refused to negotiate - apparently many people did not hear the multiple times he said this - how do you come to an agreement when someone will not negotiate? And isn't our president supposed to bring sides together - this is part of his responsibility. I would like my country to run within a budget and not out of control spending. I would like to not be forced to be a part of obamacare as it is not good for our country or we as individuals which will come to be seen in the next couple years.

Winona Litewater

Arizona Al speak out of both ears different stories.

ArizAl

Why Wesly, why so many personalities? Are you so so bad at lying that you have resort to such tactics?

Repugnicans healthcare= "IF YOU GET SICK, HURRY UP AND DIE."

TN4994

Al: You left off "and decrease the surplus population." [wink]

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